Mindfulness, Boundaries, and Healing: Tools for the Caregiving Journey with Katherine Jansen-Byrkit - Episode 151

In this episode of the Caregiver Relief Podcast, host Diane Carbo sits down with Katherine Jansen-Byrkit, a therapist, teacher, and author with over 25 years of experience. Katherine blends her background in public health and counseling with deep spiritual practice to help caregivers navigate life’s hardest challenges.

Together, they explore the difficult but necessary transition from simply surviving the day-to-day stress of caregiving to actually thriving. Katherine shares personal insights from her own journey of trauma and healing, offering practical tools to help you befriend yourself, sustain joy, and set the boundaries necessary to protect your peace.

🎧 Listen to the full episode now to reclaim your peace of mind.

🌟 Episode Highlights

1. Befriending Yourself & Taming the Inner Critic

Many caregivers live with a harsh inner critic that constantly judges their performance. Katherine suggests starting every day with a moment of mindfulness—not just to quiet the mind, but to take a stance of "loving non-judgment" toward yourself. This act of befriending yourself creates a secure attachment within, helping you handle difficult emotions without self-abandonment.

2. The Truth About Guilt vs. Shame

Guilt is the number one emotion that controls caregivers, often used as a weapon by family members. Katherine explains the vital difference between shame (feeling like a "bad person") and guilt (regret over an action). She poses a powerful question to ask when you feel guilty: "Name what you did wrong." If you set a boundary to stay healthy, you didn't do anything wrong—therefore, the guilt is misplaced.

3. The Caregiver Contract 📝

Diane introduces the concept of a Family Caregiver Contract. This involves viewing caregiving as a job that includes designated time off, vacations, and clear limits on what you can and cannot do (e.g., intimate care or managing aggression). Putting this in writing helps validate your need for breaks and sets realistic expectations for siblings and extended family.

4. Overcoming "Fierce Independence"

We often view independence as a badge of honor, but Katherine argues that "fierce independence" can actually be a trauma response. Humans are wired for connection. Asking for help is not shameful; it is brave and wise. Moving from independence to interdependence is key to preventing burnout.

5. Practical Self-Care: Nature & Movement 🌲

Self-care isn't just about massages. It's about non-negotiable movement and connecting with the world outside the sickroom. Diane and Katherine discuss the healing power of simply stepping outside to feel the sun or the cold air. Whether it's "Nia" dance classes online or just sticking your head out the door, reconnecting with your body and nature is essential for regulating your nervous system.

📋 Episode Outline

• Welcome and Introduction: Meet Katherine Jansen-Byrkit, therapist and author.
• Katherine’s Journey: Merging public health, counseling, and spiritual calling.
• Morning Rituals: Starting the day with loving non-judgment to silence the inner critic.
• Reframing Guilt: Understanding the difference between guilt and shame to stop self-sabotage.
• The Caregiver Contract: Why you need to treat caregiving like a job with defined boundaries.
• Making Hard Decisions: Navigating the transition to assisted living without feeling like a failure.
• The Cost of Stress: Discussing the statistic that 63% of caregivers fall ill or pass away before their care recipient.
• Fierce Independence vs. Interdependence: Why asking for help is an act of courage, not weakness.
• Healing Habits: The importance of non-negotiable movement and connecting with nature.

💬 Quotes to Remember

"Befriending ourselves is the beginning of undoing aloneness." — Katherine Jansen-Byrkit

"I really believe every caregiver has to look at their caring for their loved ones as a job. And in that role as a job, they have time off, they have vacations." — Diane Carbo

"Asking for help is brave. Asking for help is wise. Asking for help is not shameful." — Katherine Jansen-Byrkit

🔗 Resources & Links

• Guest Facebook: Harbor Glow Publishing– Follow Katherine on social media.

Harbor-glow-holistic -

Harbor Glow publishes transformational books, including topics on wakefulness, inspiration, and awakened self.

❤️ Did this episode speak to you? Please take a moment to like, share, or comment. Every click helps us reach more caregivers who need encouragement, resources, and hope. You are the most important part of the caregiving equation—without you, it all falls apart. You are worth it!

Podcast Episode Transcript

Diane: Welcome to the Caregiver Relief Podcast. I'm your host Diane Carbo, registered nurse, and today I am honored to sit down with Katherine Jansen-Byrkit therapist, teacher, and author who brings her expertise into public health counseling and spiritual practice.

Support those navigating life's hardest challenges. Katherine has dedicated over 25 years to counseling individuals, couples, families, and groups. Her journey is both professional and deeply personal, surviving trauma, food addiction, and a suicide attempt, and transforming those experiences into a powerful calling to help others.

In today's conversation, Katherine helps us explore what it truly means to befriend ourselves, how to sustain joy while caring for others, and the practical tools that can move us from surviving to thriving.

Diane: Welcome, Katherine. Thank you so much for joining us today. My listeners are really going to benefit from your shared stories.

Katherine: Thank you so much for having me, Diana. I'm excited for our conversation.

Diane: Yeah. Now, before we dive into self-care and caregiving, can you share a little bit about what first inspired you to blend public health counseling and spiritual practice into the work you do today?

Katherine: Oh, it's such a great question and throws a wide net.

I see them so much more as interconnected than even for some people listening. Might, counseling is a profession. Public health, which also was another career and working for a health department was a profession. Spirituality is do we go to church or not? Do we believe in God or not?

For me, Diane, all of it is, a path. Actually that for me is a spiritual path, but deeply human as part of that, spirituality. walking out, those different, parts of life in deeper and better ways over time. So public health is not just sanitation, it ends up being about, violence prevention and lots of things that people don't even know goes on with public health till I entered that career.

but it includes wellness. and it was actually, my dad was, he's passed now. He was a therapist. And, and because of my early trauma, I started my own therapy journey, very young, thankfully. And it was really at 39 years old when I was on a personal retreat that I, I got the calling of and I already had a master's degree and I already had a great career in public health, but it was like, guess what?

And this was spiritual for me. You are to be a therapist. And I didn't know what the details of that. It was like what? and I just, for me, spirituality is listening. So I really listened to that and then engaged in a second masters and, deciding to do private practice, and just bringing a lot of life experience, not necessarily that I talk about it in sessions unless it's appropriate, but just bringing all of those things together for people that are in whatever troubles they are in, whether it's caregiving or going through a change in a relationship or their own health.

those kinds of things. Did I

Diane: answer

Katherine: What you were hoping to get. to me,

Diane: your path makes sense. Okay. when I hear you talk about it, because, I'm a nurse, yes. I help support people as well. I'm a caregiver and, I have, one of the rare caregiving sites that has a faith and caregiving section to it.

Because while I am, I tell people I'm a recovering Catholic. I'm finding that, and others may not find this, but I find that people of faith, no matter what, faith, their belief in a higher power, the universe, whatever. have a, better time dealing with their journey,their life's journey, let alone their caregiving journey.

So I, I really connect with and understand where you came from when you started that it, it makes sense to me that path that you took. it was a long path for sure. Two masters. God bless you.

Katherine: Yeah, my husband was like at this personal retreat, which was really intense, Diane, they were like, this will sound weird.

It will sound almost not okay, but when you named your dream, I was in a small group in a large conference, but a small group. So it was like, I think 15 of us. So we were brave and we named it. And then what this group did, Diane, and this again is so odd, they circled me and instead of saying, you can do it Katherine, it's okay to have two master's degrees.

You don't have to know how you're gonna pay for it. It's okay that you're still raising children. They did the opposite, Diane, and they did this psychological it, it was fun. But they said. No, you don't deserve it. It's too hard. What are you thinking? How do you even know how you and I had to find in that moment, this really deep, I, yes, I don't have the details and it is okay to go back to school and I don't know, I'll study with my, I had to find the clarity, not just this like insight or calling.

Yeah. I had to, I the force by which I stood in that group and obviously it was a paid for retreat and I knew that when my husband, when I got back home, 'cause it was in California, when I flew back to Oregon, I'm like, guess what honey? He's what? How was the retreat? And I'm like, I'm gonna actually change careers even though we have all these health benefits.

'cause I work for, the state of Oregon. It's like anything he said was so much less than the group had said. He was like, are you sure? I'm like, oh yeah, I got this. So sometimes. the universe, I would say yeah. Will give us a test, our conviction test our, do you have to have all the answers? I don't believe we do.

That's a faith walk. that's a working with the universe. Yes. And and that's what, where it landed. and then that's been 25 years of an incredible journey of working with others. Providing support in whatever, it's an artist, maybe we're working with anxiety and maybe they are having an existential moment in their life.

Maybe they're facing death and dying and they don't, maybe they're just really alone and they're, they say they're an atheist. So we will talk about not being alone in different ways because, their spirituality is their own journey. and I guess that's one of the main messages I'm hoping to share is befriending ourselves is the beginning of undoing aloneness.

'cause we tend to think of aloneness as being in the company of another human. But there is a world in which, in the inner world, when we are not alone with ourselves. That now that research tells us that there's actually an attachment process that happens with our relationship to self that you probably know.

But then I add this third piece, which is not mindfulness, which is in your inner world. Imagine taking this stance of loving non-judgment with yourself. So it begins to have this idea of an active, loving relationship to self. So many people have such a critical, harsh ander critic.

and that's a more clinical and therapeutic journey to understand what that's about. Usually it's about a sense of unworthiness, and the critic is trying to make us do it perfectly and everything right, so that we feel good about ourselves or feel lovable. So that's, you have to unpack all of that, but just that little mindfulness moment of starting every day in deep connection, not with an agenda or conditions, but a deep connection with oneself means that by four o'clock, if that harsher critic is showing up.

I've already started the day in a loving relationship, and I can begin to work with that dynamic differently and not just surrender to whatever the harsher and critic is saying inside. So some people have to really face that their relationship with themselves is very unfriendly, and so if they get quiet, it doesn't feel very good inside.

They're bombarded with, judgment.

Diane: Katherine, I think that you just described the majority of family caregivers out there because they, the family caregiver is typically, they are one person in the family, and it could be just the spouse. But, sure one, if they have,it could be the solo child or someone in the family that, has come back to take care of the parents or parent and, they all are judged, they're ridiculed, they're dismissed.

they're, they're, they have uninvolved siblings and judgmental extended family members. They feel as if they're a failure if they ask for help. so they really, I think that we all have a harsh inner critic. Us. That keeps us trying to be the people pleaser and instead of pleasing everybody we try to please everybody but ourselves.

Katherine: And reversing that and that actually, not to get again into too many of the weeds of clinical waters, but that is called parts work, Diane. So that when we have a pleaser Harsh and a critic, a perfectionist, it actually is protecting, in a weird way, 'cause it's so miserable, it protects from a wounded part of us.

So whether I'm in a caregiving role or not, or find myself, somebody wants to divorce me, whatever moment of life. A lot of people come to my practice having never faced this music. They're out living a life externally that they've worked really hard to create happiness and stability and positive, and that's wonderful, but they've never really sorted with these young, wounded parts that then show up in these behavioral patterns or this like harsh inner critic.

So the reality is you won't please everyone. if I care and you're my sibling, you may have done it differently, but I cannot be beholden to pleasing you because I will often not please you. I might even disappoint you, but I will resent you. And that is unhelpful. I am quite sure in terms of if we're already under-resourced and working hard and making a lot of sacrifices.

It's not about being selfish or narcissistic, but it does start with an orientation of, I'm going to have my own standards. I am going to care, take by them. I'm also gonna take care of myself so that I can, this is perhaps not a race, but more a marathon and I will or won't be, pleasing others in the way I do this and that, this is the context of caregiving, but that is deep freedom.

Not that I don't care that others, have a hard time with the choice I would make, but it can't control me. It can't control me. So that's a tough dynamic you're describing.

Diane: Yeah. the hardest part about caregiving is, everybody start, goes back to playing the old family dynamics they were in when they were young.

And even though they've been away for maybe decades and are returning home to help out, all of a sudden they're that middle child or they're the oldest child, or they're the baby. And everybody else in the family treats them as if they have never been gone or away. And it's really hard. And what happens with is they take more and more on, and I, they become angry and resentful.

And one of the issues that most caregivers, I would say 99.9% of family caregivers have such terrible chronic stress that it, it impacts every fiber of their being and it causes illness.

Katherine: yeah. Yeah. And this idea of if I am a best friend to myself, again, that we're not speaking of narcissism here, right?

We're not speaking of selfishness. We are talking about getting real and honest about what it is when we are overly self-sacrificing, martyred in any way around that and become increasingly under-resourced. but some people really have to undo their condition that if I take care of me, which might mean I take some time for myself or I might have a boundary, or whatever I need to do to stay healthy and whole, which offers much to my life and does give me a different kind of resource.

if I don't do that, of course I'm gonna start to falter. If not have some of those human emotions, I would say, Diane, even if one is. Healthy and whole in a caregiving role, I would imagine there's some complicated feelings that come up. that's what happens for the clients I work with that find themselves in a caregiving role.

I can do this and I can keep myself well, but, part of me, and this is a way to frame it, part of me is mad about this. I this is not what I wanted to do with my fifties, or this is not, how I wanted to be in a relationship with my partner or my family member. And it's really important in that friendship with ourselves to know that there are no negative feelings that we got told years ago.

There were positive feelings and negative feelings. We're having a human experience. We may be angry, we may be joyful, we may be sad, but if we're already judging a feeling before we can even feel it in the body, and then every feeling has a need, then we're, we've already lost our way just at an emotional level.

When I coach people that you're gonna be in this role, lots of feelings are gonna come up and you're gonna need to take that stance of non-judgment and curiosity with these emotions beyond just self-care. It's going to be an emotional journey, and it may be uncomfortable some of these feelings, but not to feel guilty about them.

Does that make sense? Does that ring a bell? Oh,

Diane: absolutely. And I will tell you, guilt is one of the number. Guilt is what makes, caregivers. act and respond. people are very good at making a fair, a family caregiver feel guilty. Now they choose to feel guilty and that's what I How do they overcome that?

How do they, they have, most fair family caregivers don't identify their own limitations or set boundaries and then exactly. They feel guilty when they don't meet the expectations of everybody around them.

Katherine: So if we already like layer what we've spoken of, like I have this part of me that has pleased others to secure love and or that's just now my habit, but realizing that now I'm in this role which is exhausting and taxing in so many ways, and I actually really need to have boundaries that may or may not align with somebody else's boundaries.

I'm not gonna do 24 7, 365. I don't know, have the answers for what makes up the difference, but I'm just not gonna do that. No, you're the one who doesn't have kids. No. You're the one who lives close by. So it's the, again, if you hadn't done this before, that is a tough pill to swallow, to have a boundary when I've never learned how to have boundaries and not please others.

Yes. When my very survival and the quality of this caregiving experience is deeply affected by either having those boundaries or not having them, what I do with one of the things that is fun to talk about, because guilt is one of those, like a negative emotion. It isn't actually a negative emotion, nor is regret.

Sh It's different than shame. I would delineate that shame is when we feel bad about ourselves as a human, like I'm a bad person. Versus guilt or regret about something that happened or something I did or didn't do. Guilt and regret when it's clean in a way when it's appropriate, help us to be our most evolved self.

That's why we don't wanna say they're a problem, emotion, but here's the question I ask anybody that says I feel guilty, I literally say, then you have to name for me what you did. So tell me what you did wrong, because you may have, and that's why guilt is our friend. If I cut somebody off on the freeway, I'm gonna feel a little guilty.

I scared them and I'm gonna change my behavior. That was, I befriend guilt because it's here to help me be my most conscious self. But if I can't name something and I just feel guilty because I have a boundary, then it's no, you didn't do something wrong. So somebody can guilt trip you, but only if there's a part of you that resonates with that.

Like you said, Diane, we, no one makes us feel we have feelings. And just watching those strategies of others of guilt trip being as a manner of control or, whatever else it would be. that's the maybe opportunity in a caregiving role. I'm gonna in inadvertently do some personal work and some of my relationships are gonna be affected by a new way of being.

That is necessary for me, but ultimately serves, the, a greater good in my life.

Diane: yes. Katherine, I actually recommend to every care family caregiver out there to create a family caregiver contract and and I know my caregivers, every time I say it, roll their eyes and say, that's awful.

But I really believe every caregiver has to look at their caring for their loved ones as a job. And in that role as a job, they have time off, they have vacations, they have, They have that way if there's other people in the family, they can set, they can say, I will care for you until you become, if I can't, if I can't deal with incontinence, pers providing intimate care, I can no longer do that.

Somebody else is gonna have to take over or you're gonna have to be placed. I also tell them to think about things like if, your loved one becomes agitated or aggressive or sexually inappropriate. These things happen when you're caring for a loved one who may have dementia or other illnesses or even hallucinations and delusions.

So you really have to put things in PA on paper. But what it also does is it sets limits. It sets boundaries, and it also sets expectations for the, extended family members and siblings to help support those downtime. They either take, go physically to the home. And provide that support while you're off on the days you request off or they financially contribute to help get help in the home.

I think that's a I love that. I love that. I, you know what I think this is a really good recent way for caregivers to stand up for themselves. we looked at this and we wrote it down, and this is what I can and cannot do. And that way they are, if it's in writing, they have something that justifies their wanting time off their downtime and stuff like that.

Katherine: It's a beautiful, idea as it's so concrete, because of course it's a job and that of course it's a role. And that I think the naivete of It's just all about love. It's yeah, guess what? That there's a shadow side that can be, pretty shadowy actually. Yeah. Yes. It's driven by, I love this person, but the way to actually have love as an experience continue to be in the room is to, make sure those prevention pieces are there because, all of a sudden I don't actually feel so loving.

when I feel like I don't have a choice. I'm alone. My needs don't matter. There's not as much love in the room. So it's it's the choices generated by love, but the scaffolding around the role and the job protects the love, I would say. And people can be very, in my case, in, I don't just work with caregivers of course, but in the different cases I've had, they can be very naive.

It's it'll be fine. I'll ask help for help when I need it. Everybody understands the situation, and your idea is maybe, but maybe your idea of time off is really different than my idea of time off, Yeah. So I love that. I love that.

Diane: the average caregiver makes, says, makes promises that they have no idea what they're agreeing to.

I'll never put you in a nursing home. I'll never do this. And when in fact, there are times when they're going to have to step back and say they can't continue to do this role because of the behaviors or the situation has trained, and that has changed. And that's really hard for family caregivers to accept as well.

Yes. And I've had a recent

Katherine: case where, it's, it went on for so much longer than it should have, and now the parent is in a facility and actually doing better and well, which often is the case. But it was this like, if I move in, don't ever. Don't ever put me away. Yes. So the, this is so deteriorated, but the narrative is I have so failed my parent.

It could be partner, it could be child. Yep. Yep. when actually probably if you're beyond what your capacity is to provide care, that is what is failing them much less that you are a human and your needs matter as well and the rest of your life. And so I, I love that coaching, that idea that. Be very light touch around futuristic promises because you've gotta be, there's this idea of direct experiment experience that's an Eastern philosophy, but it's, that's how we know ultimately what's true.

We can have good guesses, but till you're living it, you don't know always how sustainable something is. So maybe it's, I can do this for six months to 12 months and then we will check in and we will see if this is still a sustainable choice or if we need to tweak anything. Something like that is just built in, like you say, like a job.

Yeah.

Diane: most caregivers don't understand that the average journey for caregiving is six to seven years, and some go as long as 20. And that's a long time. I had, one lady, I tell this story, one lady called me, she's 75, she just turned 75, and I've been helping her with her mother's 104, and doing really well.

She calls me up one day after multiple sessions trying to make this decision. She says, I've decided I'm putting my mom in assisted living. I've been caring for her for 25 years, and I need to start living my life. She goes, I'm 75. I don't know if I'll live as long as mom. And she says, I need to start living my life now.

And I thought, oh my lord. that was a long time for her, and it took her that long to get over all those feelings. she wasn't gonna put her away, she wasn't gonna do those things. And she finally had to say, mom. You have to be placed somewhere because I need to have some freedom and a chance to enjoy my life while I'm still on earth.

the ironic thing is mom's having a great time and assistance. of course. And

Katherine: that's what we often find because that projection and anything we don't have direct experience around can be an, A projection is those places. are lonely and awful and you have poor care. And when actually, and not everybody can afford the nicer places and that is very much a real thing.

But where care is just solid, doesn't even have to be high end stuff. mostly people thrive because now they're not isolated. Now they're experiencing maybe more nutrition. 'cause how I don't cook, I would be a terrible person as a caregiver in terms of trying to get nutritional stuff in. And I would offer that, that person 25 years into finally showing up Diane for herself.

And the many feelings including potentially shame. Does this mean there's a thing called confirmation bias. Does this mean I'm a bad person? Does this mean I don't love this human? Does this mean I need to sit in a room with some protest behavior that could include I'm really mad at you, or, whatever it is.

Or I'm on a pout. when that hard choice is made, that's a bravery. And some people really relate to the idea of if I don't make this choice, I am actually abandoning myself. And that's not good for anybody too, even the person I'm taking care of. 'cause that I can't transcend the feelings that come up like resentment,if I'm in a self abandoned place.

So there's befriending ourselves all the way to abandoning ourselves. Yeah. and how good, again, that you are a resource for people on that really tough journey of making choices that maybe no one will support in that family system.

Diane: You'd be surprised how many caregivers when they're trying to make that decision or put themselves first.[00:27:00]

Yes. They. It literally takes some people two or three years to get to the point where they finally take that step. And I know two of the three that I can specifically talk about, two of the caregivers actually became seriously ill and died right after they place their parent in a nursing home or assisted living, of course.

Katherine: And that's a journey too, Diane, of how much, how many symptoms and cues do we wait for? 'cause I would contend that we get cues and there are symptoms and sometimes they're subtle. It's like our intuition or for some of us that's a universe. That's a sense of the divine speaking to us. And then, the slide projector, then the slide goes around, okay, you're ignoring this more consequence.

Little bit of a cue. Did I listen, did I not? I ignored it. More consequence. So by the time I finally make the choice. I can't prevent then potentially consequences that could have been prevented before, but that sense of listening deeply, so people listening that don't identify as spiritual like you and I do, that's okay.

We all have intuition, however we would define it. It's not our mind going pros and cons. It's not just emotions. It's a deep inner voice. And if we can listen to that voice, and it won't always make sense in lots of ways, but it often is our deepest guide, then we're listening to those more subtle cues and getting ahead of stuff.

if I put my person in a home and they can't even leave their room now, they never did get to make friends there because we waited too long. Or in your case where these people actually passed, they never had that reclaiming of their life. Yeah. to back that decision up. As early as possible through this idea of listening to our intuition.

and intuition often will come through when we're healthy physically, if I'm sleep deprived, if I over drank, if I am not physically healthy, my tuning fork is not very good. And that tuning fork is what is trying to help me to understand a change as a foot. Something different is trying to happen. So that's going from surviving to thriving is not just self-care.

So I can care, take but self-care so that I can have, a deep inner knowing and attunement, when I need to have those messages.

Diane: Katherine, 63% of family caregivers become seriously ill or pass before the person they're caring for. That's how much stress, how stress begins. And they don't understand that the headaches they're feeling, the body aches, the poor eating because they're not taking care of themselves.

They're shoving food down their throat that probably isn't healthy for 'em. They're not taking time to sit and have a good meal. there's so many things that contribute to this stress, and they're always in this fight or flight mode. and after a while, I hear ones that tell me, I don't even have time to get into the shower or take a bath.

And I'm like, oh, you have to make time and well,

Katherine: and yeah, to be respectful, but in a gentle way, what's wrong with this picture? And is that actually true? Yeah. Yeah.

Diane: I will tell you, and I know this will upset some of my listeners, but, the caregivers eventually be coming, get into this victim mode and,and get a victim mentality.

they feel like they don't have choices or any way to overcome their situation when in fact they really do. And, that's frustrating 'cause trying to break that thought process or that, that attitude of, I'm the only one that can do this, or, I'm the only one that can do it.

they get into that, where they get to a point where somebody will say, can I help you? And they'll say, oh, no, I've got it all. Or if they do allow the person to help, the, one of the biggest things I have a hard time with, and I tell 'em, don't do this, is let the person provide the care in the.

They want to provide it. Just because it isn't done just exactly like you want, doesn't mean it's not gonna have the same end result. And I, many caregivers have this attitude, if it's not done their way, then don't do it. And they literally push help away. and that's sad and sabotage.

Katherine: Yeah. it's really sad and it's unnecessary, I would imagine, those dynamics which are complex for some people.

'cause again, they've never faced, oh, victim mentality. What does that mean? You're not a victim of your circumstances. And that does, and they can be very tough circumstances. we have to be careful of that because of. Resentment and martyrdom, and a kind of I don't have a choice, a non-powered position.

Now this might be really radical for your listeners, but what if every day, not only in a mindfulness moment, they begin with deep connection to self and have a day that includes nurturing themselves, but part of that initial moment is, I have a choice. And they may think you're Katherine. You're being ridiculous.

I had a choice. I have a choice to live or die attempted suicide. I, we have choices. And that means we have to take responsibility for our choice. And that while it's like, then I can't misuse my victimhood to, whatever, how it could be misused, own it. It doesn't mean it's an easy choice, but the energy of choice.

Versus the energy of non-choice and being trapped in something is obviously completely different. And that's a key. and like it was a very different context of course, but I had a choice to listen to becoming a therapist or not. I didn't know the details. I really didn't. They were overwhelming, but we don't have to know how a different choice, sometimes we get into this, I have to have it all figured out if I make a different choice.

It's no, this is a choice to do this and the choice not to do this. We would just begin to say, that's actually what I'm gonna need to do. and then be patient and maybe elicit supports around brainstorming, how do I walk this out if I were to make a different choice? But initially it's just what you're speaking of, it's getting out of that mindset of victimhood.

It's also the control piece of you're not in control, but that doesn't mean you're helpless and you're surrendered, like surrender Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz. It's more this, seeing that control is often about fear and ego, and that is really unhelpful to thriving versus surviving. And you're gonna fold the towels differently.

That person had frozen yogurt after lunch, and we don't normally do that on Fridays, but that you got your break and you're not alone, but let other people try with you in this, ultimately can feel really good if we can let go of that control and ego.

Diane: How do people,I always tell the caregivers they need to practice self-care, but what does that actually mean?

And, what are all the different ways it, it can be looked at? because caregivers say to me, self-care, I don't have time for that. I think sometimes just waking up and starting with a day of a an attitude of gratitude and a moment of mindfulness or prayer can, get you started on the right foot.

Katherine: self-care generally kind of old school ideas of self-care were, a massage going to a fun movie, maybe going for a walk and those things can really restore. So think about, we are talking about under-resourced people or potentially under-resourced people. It's not just, it feels good to do those things.

It is keeping us healthy and whole. I do now, I so love that you started that way, that the inner world, how can I take care of myself inside? What am I saying to myself? How do I,practice a kind of inner kindness? that is a way to have a positive, loving, self-care kind of world. Like self-care is giving ourselves boundaries.

Self-care is letting myself have the feelings I'm having. Self care is. The idea that I get a choice. Those are psychological and emotional things. That's not that because you can go out and get a massage or you can have your vacation, but if you're taking your unhappy mean to yourself with you on that trip or during that massage, how good do you feel on the other side your body got cared for?

So I think it's good to throw a wide net of, loving oneself and taking care of oneself as a choice and an action that is not narcissism to listen for all the ways. W we need care. for some people it's actually wounded, working maybe with a therapist and seeing that, there's a lot inside that has never been attended to.

loving myself is getting a professional involved and realizing I never dealt with that trauma. I just thought it could stay on that third shelf. But I realize it's actually driving some of my life through patterns or even through my relationship with myself. yeah, I think of, and people know themselves sometimes also over time, what did really feel supportive and helpful might not so be open to it changing over time.

Like for some people it's oh, I'll go see my friends. maybe now that feels more draining. Not to be antisocial, but maybe you do need more solitude, but that's a new thing for you. Does that make sense that as we evolve and over, over time what self-care is for us? Is different. Yeah.

Diane: And one of the things I encourage every family caregiver to do is to create what I call a care team, partner support group, and surround yourself with people that will provide you with practical assistance like the pets. Does somebody need, can somebody help with the pets? Does the yard work need to be done?

is there a family member that can help you with medication management? can they call the pharmacy? Is there somebody else that, can look into community resources that are available out there? There's a variety of different things that you can use to take care of yourself by getting some breaks and respite care.

Through, practical assistance of somebody helping you. And I think that's really important as well. it's self-care in a different way, but it assures you, it, it allows the caregiver to have a break to from everything. ask somebody, can you bring in a meal once or twice a week, or, Hey, can you sit with dad while, for an hour or so so I can go to the gym every day?

There's different ways that you can get practical assistance and, support yourself. that's, that I think is self-care as well. I,

Katherine: I, yes. Thank you for adding that piece. that beyond just the direct activities that are nurturing to oneself and having the boundaries to be able to have that time, that actual time and space, that it often enough will require that somebody that we ask for help.

So maybe Diane to pause for a minute and just acknowledge that in this culture, I would say in my experience of it as a 62-year-old woman, but also as a clinician, that we have adopted this idea of fierce independence as like the North star. It is actually, I believe, a trauma response. There's a very uninteresting, because codependence is also in a way pathological and is, problematic, but there's this middle path, it's called interdependence, which is again, a very uninteresting little phrase.

But fierce independence means that if I do something that is not independent, that if I'm not fully self-reliant, then I have a shame attached to that. So asking for help, having a need, I really believe. We need to undo the condition, the cultural conditioning around that. Maybe family conditioning too, that asking for help is brave.

Asking for help is wise. A asking for help is not shameful, but people may, hearing this may have to realize that they're gonna have to move through some of those feelings. Initially it'd be like, oh, this is really hard for me to do. Yeah. It's not that they would say no necessarily, it's that I'm the barrier to asking for help.

you're naughty that resonates.

Diane: I know. the baby boomers are fiercely in independent. They wanna be, and I know that the caregivers that are taking care of them, are fierce, see themselves as fiercely independent and it's gonna break them because they push themselves way more.

That's right. That's right. We have lost our sense of community. you used to grow up and you were, everybody in your family was lived within a 25 or 50 mile radius of where you were born. And now people are from, families are all over the world. Let or not even on the other side of town, they're in another state.

So we've really lost our sense of community. And I think with social media and, everything that's going on, we don't have, our communication skills are being challenged as well because, everything's so public. people put pictures up of what they've eaten every day.

Katherine: yeah. There's, yeah, there is a kind of, and being our own sense of self of course is important.

Yeah. But I would say this kind of, heavy duty individualism and if we really look at indigenous. the, why do we have a need developmentally, that is a belonging need that's different than I need to know. I am lovable and I need to know I'm worthy. I actually need to belong. We, we have mirror neurons, interconnectivity.

What happened TO during the pandemic? What happens when babies. not are fed, but aren't touched. It's because of connection. And so going back to which I actually think there's much more of a movement, around understanding we actually really need each other. We belong to each other. We need each other.

And if you actually are lucky enough to have, if you're alcoholic, you get to go to aa, there's a group. If you're a caregiver in Portland, Oregon, there are caregiving groups. You get to go. Yeah. So you get to have this, like, how I got here is because of this thing we share. But the being here is about being in a circle, being in community, having, that sense of, again, tribe around our experience.

So I love that we're naming this. And I would imagine that's a theme for you that you talk about with people.

Diane: Oh yeah. most caregivers feel most comfortable being online instead of in person. And because they feel like they're, they have time overwhelm and they the inability to add anything extra to their schedule because they're trying to take, many caregivers are not only taking care of their, aging parents or an aging friend or relative, but they're also, many of them are, taking care of a children,teenage children because they're in that, that they're the sandwich generation where, they waited to have babies so much later in life, so now they've got teenagers at home with parents, and they're running two households.

So it's very challenging for them, and that's why I really encourage, the support group, the care team, partner support group as well.

Katherine: So Exactly, and even that, for example, maybe all of a sudden I'm in this role, I swallowed some lemonade or our family just were very independent.

I been socially isolated. I didn't realize how much I need others. That is if I already don't have a lot of time and now I need to reengage in relationships. But I have neglected relationship. I have neglected the importance of relationship in our lives. that's, again, not an impossibility obviously.

but. That's that more challenging. I sometimes give people little nuggets of okay, so you feel really alone. You've let your friendships go by the wayside. You don't have a lot of time. What would it be like to be just a little bit courageous and just name that with this friend, not with shame, but just I have missed you.

We've fallen out of step with each other. I would really love to reengage in any way if this resonates for you, whatever that could look like. Yeah. If I got that text from somebody I am out of touch with five or 10 years ago, that would mean the world to me. and so sometimes it's hard for people to if the waters aren't warm, put their toe in, to some, but we often have relationships, some of which that are a little out of date that could become current pretty fast.

Yeah,

Diane: the majority of family caregivers, I tell them their outside relationships are like a garden. It needs water and sunshine. And you are the water and sunshine in that relationship and so many, at the end of their caregiving journey. Are exhausted and have no one to support them or, help them through recovering, from their reco, their journey because they have neglected those relationships.

And I think that's when,I really encourage the support group, the caregiver support, care team, partner support group, as well as just, finding time to make time for yourself for those outside relationships. Exactly.

Katherine: and you can see the map of this. That's why I love your contract idea, because.

I'm gonna take care of myself. I also need to, maybe I do have a spiritual community and that's its own part of myself in life. Then there's just my friendships to keep rich. and not one, and not two. That person could pass, that person could move to not be so limited. and to, and then not to be apologetic about, I don't need five hours today, every day to take care of myself and to attend to those relationships.

But attachment, going back to the ideas of a human attachment, consistency is more important than how much time. I can't go on that friend weekend. Maybe don't go on the front weekend, but can you have lunch? Can you have a something? and having it be small enough to be manageable and then more regular is a way we get out of neglect.

Little bit of water, a little bit of sunshine maybe on those flowers. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah.

Diane: and I think one of the things caregivers really, have a hard time with is talking about anything other than they wanna talk about their issues. oh, dad's driving me crazy, we're having all these issues when they need to be talking about something else.

what, what they wanna do. Or make a plan or, just to be grateful, to be able to get out and have a human,a human contact with somebody other than the person they're caring for.

Katherine: yes, and the sadly, if I'm your only break and you needed to vent and you needed to over time, I'm gonna remember that when we have lunch.

you're downloading a lot of stuff and not to not mention it, of course. 'cause that would be avoidant. Yeah. But that is the role of a therapist or a support group. That's where that stuff needs to get channeled. 'cause the whole focus is, this is really hard and it's taking up a lot of air. So once some of that gets released, then it doesn't in a different social context, have to take up so much space.

And then that's, yeah. Yeah,

Diane: because I think that it's important that, if you wanna play pickleball or you want, you go to jazzer size or you line dance or whatever, try to make it a regular activity for you as a caregiver to get out because it just gives you the oxygen and the gen and the energy to continue on your caregiving journey.

Katherine: exactly. And one piece I'm working with right now, personally, that's just this aging. Using intuition and then seeing what's next. So part of food addiction for me was I went from one 20 and as a. And it's not really about weight, but it was just so dramatic. In three months, I went from about 120 pounds to 200.

I was literally unrecognizable in my high school. No one bullied me. I was just so deeply in shame. So even before that and during that, at 12 years old, I started running. I was first generation,it wasn't about athleticism, it wasn't about going out for track. I did do that, but I started running and my mom and dad were like, Fran, you what?

Who is this human being that's going for these runs? So movement. So I'm giving up running after 50 years on December 2nd, not because I have an injury, not because I need a surgery, just I know that this body needs now not impact, like that. So I'm grieving. There was fear that came up. My old eating disorder stuff came up, but I knew and I didn't engage in those behaviors.

Moving into, it's non-negotiable that Katherine moves, but it is negotiable about how she moves. And so if you are not just. Taking care of our relationships. Not just working through, our relationship with ourselves, but nutrition and movement being critical pieces. gentle movement. I'm just thankful that you're naming that and that, there's so many things out there now and I'm doing, I do Nia now 'cause I love to dance and I love music.

I mostly just do it online 'cause I can, this great teacher in Colorado and I do her time change and we do it Tuesday, Thursday. So there's so much available now where you don't have to physically go, you don't have to join the gym. Maybe there isn't line dancing anymore or it's at night. Yeah. but to have it be non-negotiable and some people I say, do you negotiate whether you brush your teeth?

And they look at me and I said, that's how movement needs to be. You can have days off differently than brush your teeth, but as soon as it's like I'm exercising and then I have an off on switch, then you will have an off switch and. These kinds of roles, that's part of staying resourced and part of dealing with that stress you were talking about earlier, the cortisol.

Diane: Yes. I encourage every family caregiver to try to get outside even for a few minutes every day too. Stick your head out, take some fresh air into your lungs. love it. Feel sun, feel if you're in, I've lived in Minnesota and now I'm living in Myrtle Beach, feel that heat of that sun or feel that ocean breeze or stick your head out and get icicles on it.

Nature,

Katherine: nature.

Diane: I love it.

Katherine: Nature and nature. We're learning more and more about like relationships. We need nature. It is not even about the inactivity in nature. Yes. So good

Diane: about connecting with the earth. I, it just connecting with, helps ground you and makes you feel that you're part of something bigger.

At least it does for me. And it's also a time for me to do my positive self-talk or whatever, or to set goals for the day. And I think that's really important too, so that, I'm a list maker and I encourage everybody, write down what you need to accomplish, what are your priorities for the day.

Maybe it's, you gotta get dad into the shower and it's going to take all day. Or you can do bathing without a battle and bathe little bits of him all day long while he's in the bathroom or he is eating or whatever. There's all kinds of ways that you can get a person clean without having to throw him in a shower.

But it's having you change your perspective and you change your life. And

Katherine: Exactly. And having that intentionality. yeah. One thing that you're, it is just this kind of a curiosity, politics and the environment never used to be part of therapy. I've done 25 years, so I've seen a lot of kind of cultural things.

There are three diagnoses now that are associated with environmental anxiety because what is happening on the planet, much less how disconnected we are. that's actually in the DSM now, which is really wild. Probably politics will be at some point, and I'm not making a political statement, but how. How it feels when the world feels, I feel separate from the world or I don't feel safe in the world, and how that plays in our nervous system.

and so those things to be acknowledged too in terms of what a caregiver as a human being, just on the planet at this time, what they're carrying. So I love your, just stick, even your head out because it's that fresh air and remembering that we're part of an ecosystem.

Diane: Yeah.

Katherine: Our mammals, our animalness.

yeah.

Diane: I, I just think that caregivers, have to make time for themselves every day. And I hear a million excuses why they can't or won't. And I, so that's my, it's important that I encourage them to do things that make them feel good every day. and if you're, 'cause so many feel depressed or are tired, hey, putting your head out, you'll wake up, you'll see the sun.

Maybe feel, I know I have seasonal effect disorder, so I love, I'm happy in Myrtle Beach because there's so much sunlight. I was born and raised in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and it was overcast all the time, so I struggled. And one of the things that surprised me when I moved to Minnesota, I lived there for 10 years.

In Burnsville, Minnesota, how bright and sunny it was every day there. Even in the most bitter cold days, it was bright and sunny and I thought that was my first realization. Oh my lord, the sun does exist. The sun does exist,

Katherine: and there's really something to that. What I also have really seen squared is because warmth and sunshine are, when people go outside.

Some of seasonal affective disorder is that we stop going, oh, it's daylight saving time, so now it's too dark. It's like you need to be outside and it is helpful when it's sunny, but it's also the outdoors. I think there's a piece that will emerge from research around that and but how those are really simple things that doesn't change a situation, but taking responsibility for our health and wholeness within any situation is that empowered choice place, not victim.

I'm just stuck here, kind. Increasingly under resourced, which would create depression and further fatigue all the things. do you feel like before, I know we're close, but I wanna just ask you, are you feeling like you're getting from me what you were hoping in terms of your listeners and attending to those?

Oh yeah. I think, yeah,

Diane: absolutely. I really do. caregivers are struggling. Katherine and they just need to hear that it's okay to take care of yourself. You do need to set boundaries and limits, get that caregiver contract in place, get outside, to fight your depression and your, the other thing is they have high expectations of other people and they get frustrated because,and this is a old family dynamics play.

I can ask somebody, can you do this for me? And they'll say yes. And then they don't do it. or they'll say, I can't do it, then I have to do it on another day. Then you have to try to be flexible. But the other thing is caregivers want to be able to ask somebody once for something and hope that they'll continue and it doesn't work that way.

people need to have frequent. Conversations, caregivers feel like they're bothering somebody or they feel, or they've been told, don't nag me. yes, it's not nagging, it's making a request. if you want your brother to come over to your parents' house to get the trash out every Thursday and he misses a Thursday, it's okay to call him up and say, Hey, are you coming or not?

people and caregivers have to understand that you have to ask somebody more than one time. sometimes you, yes,

Katherine: and I guess what I would offer is we have to be careful that a request lives and us as an agreement. And does not live in the other person as an agreement request has a yes or no answer.

So I think the clarity of I'm, I am now making this like I'm invested in every Thursday. You're doing that? Is that what I'm hearing you say? There's a communication piece of reflecting back because somebody could be like, oh yeah, I can help on Thursday. Oh, you met every Thursday, you met indefinitely.

That's not how it lives inside of me. And here we go again with a missed dynamic in that relationship. I love that you're saying flexibility. That's just a psychological thing too. we need to be able to pivot. We need to not be practicing self perfectionism or perfectionism with others. And if we get to have boundaries, guess what?

Others get to have boundaries. When my parents passed and in their journey, I have four sisters. I did what I needed to do. I showed up as the daughter I needed to show up in. It was not my job to, I had to do 10 ties, what any of my sisters were doing. I could have gone there, oh, you're doing a lot, or, oh, you are not doing enough.

That's not that, that would've compromised my sisterhood. and we all did pretty well with that. And some of us did more and some of us did less. What I came to is I've gotta be in integrity with what is right for me and not pay attention to what others are doing. and that did protect their, those parents are passed now, but we never had, and then if I can't do it and none of my four sisters are going to step up to the plate to do that Thursday garbage, that's when we have a conversation about, we need supplemental support.

We need supplemental support. 'cause I get to have boundaries. But you get to have boundaries.

Diane: Absolutely. And I really appreciate your information today. I think it's very enlightening to my listeners out there. How do they find you?

Katherine: Harbor Glow. holistic.com, is my overall website.

I you can buy, I published a book on idea, these kinds of ideas in 2019. My husband's a chiropractor, so you obviously people are from all over. and he's semi-retired now, but he's on that website. But that's one place. And I do not like a newsletter all the time, but a couple times a year I will send out a community kind of share, on these kinds of ideas, different things.

I saw a dolphin on the beach in Costa Rica recently, and it died with all of us right near it. So I did a, it was so beautiful. We were like a little death, doulas, surpr. I've never seen a dolphin on a beach. I didn't know what to do 'cause I, it was alive. so there's that, I only can see people in Oregon.

That's my jurisdiction as a therapist. But my book, reaching Out, being part of my wakefulness community, I'd love any of your audience to connect with me that way.

Diane: Great. I'll put all those contacts in on site and in the show notes, to my family caregivers out there, you are the most important part of the caregiving equation.

Without you, it all falls apart. So please learn to be gentle with yourself and practice self-care every day because you are worth it.