Collapsing Narcissism in Caregiving: Creating Respect and Balance at Home with Amy Vasterling - Episode 110

Are you a family caregiver feeling drained, unseen, and caught in toxic family dynamics? Do you find yourself constantly navigating the challenging behaviors of a narcissistic parent or relative while trying to provide care? You are not alone, and this episode is a beacon of hope for you.

In this transformative episode of the Caregiver Relief Podcast, host Diane is joined by researcher and author Amy Vasterling to discuss a groundbreaking concept: collapsing narcissism in caregiving to create an environment of respect, balance, and well-being. Amy, author of the new book No: Where the Status Quo Ends and You Come to Life, shares insights from over 22 years of observational research to help you reclaim your power.

This conversation is a must-listen for anyone struggling with the emotional weight of caregiving within a narcissistic family system.

What You'll Discover in This Episode 💡

Here’s a sneak peek at the powerful topics Diane and Amy explore:

• 🧠 What is "Personal Knowing"? Learn about this simple yet profound concept of trusting your own inner guidance and why it’s a caregiver's most powerful tool for navigating toxic dynamics.
• ⛓️ Breaking "The Model": Amy explains how society operates within a hierarchical "model" of control and how stepping out of it is the key to finding peace and natural equality.
• 🐘 The Power of Highly Sensitive People (HSPs): Discover why Amy calls HSPs the "elephants of the world" and how their unique sensitivities are actually a superpower for creating positive change in family systems.
• 🔄 How to Change a Pattern: Hear Amy's stunning story about shifting a lifelong family dynamic with her father, who was in a memory care unit, leading to a moment of profound clarity and healing.
• ✋ A Practical Tip for Chaos: Amy shares a simple physical technique—digging your fingernails into your hand—to keep yourself grounded and prevent you from getting drawn into a narcissist's drama.
• ⚖️ Boundaries and Balance: Get practical advice on how to set firm boundaries with unhelpful siblings and family members without feeding into the conflict.
• 💖 A Final Message of Hope: Find encouragement in Amy’s final message about the importance of discovering where you truly belong to find the natural support you deserve.

Key Moments & Powerful Insights ✨

Understanding the Root of the Problem

Amy introduces the concept of "narcissistic social disordering," suggesting that wherever we have an unmet need, we tend to operate from a place of control. This control is part of what she calls "the model," a system designed to maintain or advance our place in a hierarchy. For caregivers dealing with a narcissist, this model is a constant source of tension. The narcissist refuses to give up control, while the caregiver often feels powerless.

Reclaiming Your "Personal Knowing"

One of the most empowering ideas from this episode is "personal knowing". Amy explains that from childhood, we are often taught to mistrust our own feelings. Parents, teachers, and even doctors may tell us, "I know better for you than you know for yourself". This erodes our ability to trust our intuition. Reclaiming your personal knowing is the first step to setting boundaries and making choices that protect your well-being, even if others don't understand them.

"The doctors would look at all my markers that were off and say, 'you're fine.'... I am not fine." - Amy Vasterling on trusting her personal knowing during a six-year journey with chronic Lyme disease.

Shifting the Power Dynamic

How do you "collapse" narcissism? Amy explains that it’s not about fighting the narcissist head-on. Instead, the power lies with the "enabler" or the person on the other side of the dynamic. By refusing to feed the drama and stepping out of the control model, you starve the narcissistic behavior of the attention it needs to thrive.

This involves being honest about what you can and cannot do. If you're overwhelmed, it's okay to say, "I'm not able to care for dad anymore," and explore other options without letting guilt pull you back into the old pattern.

Your Final Message of Hope

If you're feeling isolated, Amy's final message is a powerful reminder:

"Find out where you do belong. Find out where your heart is at home, because when you find that you're gonna find natural help that is like you and natural support that is built the way you're built... that's what we need is we need the people and the connection that are true for us and that changes everything".

Connect with Amy Vasterling

Want to learn more from Amy? You can find her here:

• Website: https://amyvasterling.com/
• YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@AmyCernyVasterling
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amyintuitivepathfinder
• Mailing List: https://golden-grass-244.myflodesk.com/gpyckel8y9

This episode is more than just a conversation; it's a lifeline for caregivers who feel like they're drowning. Listen to the full episode to absorb all the wisdom from Amy Vasterling and start your journey toward balance, respect, and peace at home.

Don't forget to check out Amy's new book, No: Where the Status Quo Ends and You Come to Life!

Podcast Episode Transcript

Diane: Welcome to the Caregiver Relief Podcast, where we provide family caregivers with support, tools and insights to navigate the toughest challenges of caregiving.

Diane: Today we're going to explore a truly transformative idea what happens when we collapse narcissism and caregiving, and create an environment of respect and balance at home.

My guest is Amy Vasterling, who has dedicated over 22 years of observational research to answering that question. She's a powerful speaker, researcher and has a newly released book. She's the author of the book, no. Where the status quo ends and you come to life, we'll dive into Amy's groundbreaking concept of personal knowing and the unique role of highly sensitive people and what caregivers can learn to navigate toxic dynamics, set boundaries, and protect their wellbeing while caring for a loved one.

Let's get started. Amy, thank you so much for your time. I have to tell you, this is one of the most, Looked at topics on my website. Narcissism and caring for somebody else has been a challenge. So thank you to for coming with us today. Oh, Diane, thanks for having me. I'm excited to share what I know.

I'm excited. But before we get into the deeper parts of your work, I'd love for listeners to get to know you a little bit. Can you share a bit about your journey? What first sparked your curiosity about human behavior and led you down the path of researching? Personal knowing and equality.

Amy: Yeah, I think I was both lucky and unlucky.

I had a trying childhood and it was steeped in high level mental and emotional abuse. And it wasn't overt, like they weren't being malicious, but that's what was happening. So what I could see as a child is while I more could feel it, that the interaction was about disconnection. I couldn't understand why would we do that?

But you couldn't change it as a child. I had a lot of power as a kid, and I'd say things that would put it in its place sometimes, and I learned a lot. But the thing that I really say is from my childhood, I could have never have learned that from a book or from an education at a university.

So to write this book and to do this work, I needed it hands on. And then, my, my ex spouse, he's a great guy. There was a lot of this going on in a different way in my marriage. Yes. And I was with him for 28 years and then we, separated ways. And really what I came to see is it was keeping me in something I call the model, which we'll talk about in a bit, but we weren't able to express and expand into who we truly are with each other.

And these are ways raising my children. All of these pieces came together to help me understand something is really wrong. So years ago I asked the question, if one could collapse narcissism, how would one do it? Just curious. And also, why don't all people thrive? there are obvious reasons that we could say, but I didn't wanna look at the obvious reasons.

I wanted to look more at why are there some outliers that don't thrive? Why this, why that? So instead of. Going to the books and so on. I just challenged everything that came my way inside myself, not necessarily with others. To think at higher levels, and that's how it came about. And then the book took me three years to write, and two years into the book, I realized the result of my work ends a result in natural equality, which for an altruist, I was pretty thrilled.

Diane: Oh my, yes. Yeah. I have so many adult children of narcissists. On my side. And it's, it's challenging for them when they provide care to their loved one because there, there's so many dynamics going on there. So I wanna ask you, what inspired you to explore the idea of collapsing narcissism and how did it connect with your personal journey?

Amy: absolutely. I think that coming out of, asking the question, why don't all people thrive, I could see that I had narcissistic. Behaviors going on around me. And what I've come to see is I now call it. Narcissistic social disordering because really wherever we have an unmet need, we are operating from some form of control.

And while we might not qualify that as narcissism, it is the same coming from the same source. The differences, the narcissist won't give up the jig. They won't say, I'm sorry, or set down the sword. they'll thwart to because they don't wanna see that part of themselves. But for me. I'm just somebody who is highly curious and I thought, is this possible?

And that's what drove me in parts. But really the catalyst that tipped me to starting this is my children. I recognized that when they were quite young. My son was probably a year and my daughter, about three to three and a half. I had some bouts of anger, which it was, I'm an introvert, so it was a lot Being a mama, I think it's a lot for a lot of mamas, like I don't think that's, yeah.

Unnatural or unor, not normal, but I noticed that and I try and hold it back and, and by the fourth time that came up, I hid it head on and looked at myself. Two parenting methods came my way. And in eight years time past that, people would say to me that I didn't even know you're a magic.

it because I cared to see not what my parents did, and do the opposite, which is what most of us do. My parents were really not my parents, but this parent was really harsh, so I'm gonna be really lenient, Yes. Instead, I looked at what's going on and what it taught me is the model shows up on two sides, like a pendulum, and that's why we feel like life is speeding up because we're stuck in a fixed point model with this pendulum swinging.

But the power is in the middle. So when I came, came to see that over the years of learning these parenting techniques that cracked open something that really identified this is happening. There's something that is called the model, and then I built on that.

Diane: God bless you. 'cause it's desperately needed.

It's timely, it's, it is very timely, especially with the silver tsunami coming away. and it's here right now. So you talk about personal knowing. Can you explain what that is and why it's important for caregivers to embrace this?

Amy: Yeah. It's really a tricky thing because it's so simple, it's ridiculous, but when we were children, it was common for parents to behave to misunderstand us, and that leaves us with this.

Tenant of unknowing, like we don't know what to do. And here's how that works is we're a baby and we cry because we need milk or whatever. And then we're one and a half or maybe a little bit older than that and we cry because something happened. And our parents label it. They say, you're just tired or you are just, and this is where it starts, is these small little breakdowns.

And it seems so silly. Yeah. But what's really happening is I know better for you than you know for yourself. And yet the parent has no experience being that child. They can't feel what the child feels or understand, but they think they do. So this is where it begins. And then we're told, trust your doctor.

Like I had a six year journey with chronic Lyme. That was horrible. And my own mother said to me, if you don't trust the doctors, you're gonna ruin your health. the doctors would look at all my markers that were off and say, you're fine. Yes. It's I am not fine.

Diane: I will attest to, as a nurse of 54 years, I can tell you that you can't trust the doctors all the time.

You,I'm I'm sorry, they are not all knowing, and I've seen this over and over again, even with conditions. Like lime, you're looking for something and looking for something and, they miss it. So I, you ha my, I encourage everybody get a second or third opinion, whatever, but your mom was wrong.

I'm right.

Amy: and what I'm, why I'm saying this is I knew inside. To move to something else or to go and it all pieced together over those six years. But that's what we're missing. And the reason we're missing it is we've had this paved over. So then we're trusting what the teacher thinks and what this person thinks because we're told they are higher.

So my work comes from the model, which is the control that we assert to maintain or advance our place in the hierarchy. And the hierarchy is really about. The model fueling this, hierarchy of there are some with no consequences and others have far too high of a consequence. And those with no consequence set the tone for society because it goes unchecked.

Yes. And they never mature because they had no consequences. And then those with far too high of a consequence, we say, oh, you're just strong. How good you are to be strong and endure. No. So that is the problem is we didn't mature and I travel a lot around the world and when I talk to people out in the world.

They say to me, oh, it's the same here. We haven't matured either. and they'll, they can see it. So I don't think it's unique, and I think it's the hierarchy from Europe that's, I live mostly in Europe, and I think that's why I'm very curious to take it down inside. Yeah. but personal knowing is really simple.

We think it's this intuitive and all of this, but intuition is synonymous with being human. It is not unique. It's just, it's been quieted and dumbed down because it can be scary. Yeah. It can be so powerful in a way where it's like we know things that we shouldn't, we think we shouldn't know. So I want us to go back to the basics of are you hungry?

Do you know if you do or you do not wanna go on vacation? Yeah. Wow. 'cause that's where it begins and that's what, how natural equality is achieved. But there's a point of leaving the model, which takes inner work and, relieving ourselves of our shadow comes in my work from inner child work and then relieving ourselves of control comes from recognizing when we're posturing in the model.

And in my book, there are seven ways that we posture. but that's where we are trying to prove ourselves in some way to say, I'm worthy. Or look at me, or, there's insecurity there or another way that we're feeling like we're not holding that position. So that's the long answer.

Diane: No, but you explain it so simply, and I appreciate that because I'm an adult child of an alcoholic, and my dad was a narcissist and he was, I saw, as I went through nursing school and we went into psych, psychiatric conditions and stuff, I saw my dad as a narcissist and,I've dealt with that my whole life.

And what you're saying is about the hierarchy. I am, I was the oldest of four, so therefore I could tell you I didn't, I always questioned authority and I had that strength, and I think it's because I had a mother that was really good and open and supportive of me. Not that my dad wasn't supportive, but he just, he just, it was all about him all the time.

And, so I really relate to this on so many levels. So many caregivers are dealing with narcissism within their family. I know I personally am one. How can they begin to recognize and respond to it in a healthy way?

Amy: Yeah. I think the benefit is, and this is also the difficult thing with a family member that particularly is ailing, is I've always said when our parent or the person we're caring for is not themselves.

It makes it really hard for us. Yeah. But the other advantage there, or opportunity perhaps, is with dementia or even pain Is if we change a pattern, there's a chance that there they will come with us. So I'll tell this story, and in the book I wrote about it anonymously because I didn't know legalities.

And also it reads better as. A client versus myself. But yes, I woke up one morning. I was super anxious. I knew it wasn't mine. I tuned in a little bit and I knew it was my father who was in a memory care unit at the time. I showed up and he rushed over to me, was really agitated and said that my brother, who was in his forties, but my father was thinking he was 12, was babysitting a child, and the child was kidnapped under my brother's care.

He was just out of sorts and I paused and I changed a pattern in my family. We always had, one kid was always on the outs so that the family dynamic could work. everybody hates you now so we can all work together. Yes. And which is really common in narcissistic families, I think. Yes. Ment too. But so then I changed the pattern.

I advocated for my brother and I said, he's just a child, dad. It's the right thing for him to contact you and mom to get help. It's bigger than he is. And my dad sat back and he paused, and then he reached his hand across the table and patted my hand and he said, I never knew why we treated you kids so badly, all the, all those years.

oh my. 'cause he got it. he and I are a lot alike. Like he's a lover. Yes. And he was playing this role not on his own accord, but this is how it works. And he's a dad. He's I don't know what to do. He, I think dads were left out in that way. And my dad would've been like, Mrs.

Doubtfire before. He became the nanny. he's really kinda wild and fun. Yeah. So that was a pivotal moment of seeing if you can change the pattern that your family dynamic worked off of, because they're in a, I don't mean any offense by this, but a weakened state where they might not react on the same patterns.

Yes. There's a chance there. The other thing is, and this is really tough, is in my work, the problem is they need a consequence. And so in my work it often is step away from them and let them address these things that is pretty harsh. When somebody is ill, yes. But I would say if you can advocate for their next door neighbor to do this thing and delegate as many things and recognize who you can and can't be, and be honest about that.

I had a friend that was dying and one of the women was like, all I can do is bake cookies and bring 'em. And the woman was so sick she can't eat cookies, but every time a woman made cookies, some young kid came over and they were like, here, take the cookies. And they were like, thank you so much. Yes, it worked out in a flow because they were honest about who they could be.

Yes. And you have that right too. When my father was ill, in the beginning. I would notice at a care conference, the three sisters would show up that were nurturing and thoughtful and it would be the perfect dynamic. And then my dad got out of a locked facility where he was for healing, like aftercare After surgery. And, he, 'cause he looked so good and then my brother and my mom and I showed up where we can be stern and firm and, but good. communicate well. So I think when we do that, we allow this. Natural, what is intuitive to flow and it can be scary to ask your sibling who might be narcissistic themselves, but setting boundaries there and saying, are you able to do this or not?

Okay. It sounds like you can't, so I'm going to that. Let's be done with that. Just keep moving on. Somebody will fill in if you keep saying, and there are a lot of people who are retired that are like, I'd come sit with your. Person for four hours, and you can trust them. They're people do wanna help.

Yeah.

Diane: I encourage every family caregiver to create a care team, partner support group, and ask for practical assistance. And one of the things that I find for with majority of my caregivers is that they feel that like they're a failure if they ask for help. And they also are so used to being beaten down.

Most of it's because of a narcissistic parent. the old DI family dynamics go into play and they are involved. There are uninvolved extended family members and siblings that won't help at all. And they beat this person, this caregiver, down to a pulp. And, abuse them in so many ways. So that's why I'm so excited about your book, because caregivers need to know that those people in their lives need to provide support.

90, 63% of family caregivers become seriously ill or die before the person they're caring for. And that's because they don't have the support that they re sh they are, should have. Yeah. So I'm really, I'm loving what you're saying here, and I hope that my listeners will appreciate what you're sharing because it's very valuable to them and will help them be healthier in the long run.

Amy: and Diane, I'm gonna interrupt you and say this one thing. When you were saying this, it made me think of something, a nice way to approach it with family members that are resistant to help is, Hey, I need these five things, or setting up a, what's that called? Project Genius or Sign up Genius. But then saying,

like, when you're ready, let me know what, how you can help. Because often when people hear that statement, when you're ready, even children that are highly sensitive will respond to that and they'll respond confidently, but when they're ready and it helps people to trust us again. Yes.

Especially when there's a family breakdown with a narcissistic parent, we tend to, it's like everybody for themselves, it's like you're constantly in the water outside of the ship trying to swim. So if you. Give them that space and that freedom in it and the sibling who's yeah, I'll sign up for all these things, and then they don't show up.

It's not gonna work for me to do that, or to have that happen again or just keep setting it. Because really what everybody wants is to be reparented. And that's what didn't happen with narcissistic parents is we weren't parented. We had to figure we, we were in the waters is what I mean.

Diane: Yes.

Wondering. Wow. So tell me, what does it mean to collapse narcissism and how can caregivers apply this in their own lives and caregiving relationships?

Amy: So really my book isn't much about collapsing narcissism. Only one time in the book do I say this is how we collapse narcissism. But the real point of it is the people that are on the other side from the authoritarian or the narcissist, the enabler is the one who can recognize the control that they are elic or putting out there.

And my book highlights how that is, but the idea is if they stop that. Stop feeding into the model like a sibling that's get gets upset that somebody says they won't help, then they're gonna start to push back. And that's them saying, I'm hiring the model in the hierarchy here. Yes, that's still control.

So it's about letting go of that and looking for what other players can come in and help. But, really what happens is if you don't feed it, it doesn't happen. And it's not the good dog thing, but. When the enabler moves out, in South Korea as well as in the United States, there are a lot of women getting divorced and saying, Hey, I'm gonna live with a community of women.

I'm never gonna marry again. I don't have any interest in that because on the whole, it's been a lot of men that have been narcissistic, especially in my generation X. So in a way, this enabler stepping away when we, I'm gonna say this, you know somebody who has known KNOW. You see it in them.

They stay quiet when all the hell's breaking loose in the situation, they are solid. They don't have to say anything because they know it will figure itself out if they just let the frenzy and the drama play out, and that's where we're headed, is that naturally allows us to be calm. We're not gonna have to meditate and do all these things.

To me, that also is part of the model sometimes. If we're not using it when we just need it, and when you're trying to use it all the time, we've gotta look at why are we doing that? what is happening inside of us that we have to use this all the time. So we are focused on healing that. The other piece that is very hard, the control is one thing, but the other piece that's tricky is the inner child.

And I'm setting up some events for the future, but I'm taking it slow because the book just came out and I wanna make sure I do that really. on point for my work. But that getting in and letting that be sloppy because when the inner child, there are all these parts within us and when they're operating off of, Ooh, that's triggering that, and Ooh, this is happening.

And it's not necessarily reactive behavior, it's there is something bigger going on in unmet need. That when we start working with that, oh my gosh, you become so much more resilient and that's what you need when you're dealing with caring for somebody because it is. you just said it, Diane, that people become ill.

it's a really common situation. Yeah.

Diane: even, worse than that, people, a lot of caregivers become angry and full of rage. And resentment. Yes. And the resentment is so strong and that just feeds more into their illness, creating an illness in their stress levels. you, you bring a valid point here that, I really appreciate because I can see myself, I have a situation where my stepmother, while my dad was.

Dying. here I am a nurse. I know stuff, right? And she wouldn't even let me put a bandaid on him. she was also a narcissist and, it was always about her and it was really hard. but of course I had a, my dad didn't break me like he did my, a lot of my siblings, my other siblings.

But I was like, I was strong enough to stand up and, but. I'm proud of myself because I, but I, it took me to get into my forties to get there. I asked the social worker of the hospice organization to do a meeting with us to intervene because I was going to be the one that was gonna be providing end of life care when my dad was on hospice and she was not gonna be.

Capable of knowing what to do. And,it was really a good meeting. My, my stepmother was still very resentful, but because we had confronted her in a non-emotional way, I was able to finally be able to provide. Care to my father when he needed it. And, she wasn't happy, but, she had no other recourse because the way we approached it.

So I really, I like that, approach of being calm and, watching the chaos because, that's what some of the things I learned when I was in Al-Anon or adult children of alcoholics. But it's hard to. Put in practice when you are, in an emotional state and it just, I have a

Amy: tip for

Diane: you.

Amy: Wonderful. So when I've been in a situation with the narcissist and they've done something really over the top, yes, I dig my fingernails into my hand Uhhuh and just to keep me from. Getting in there. yes. In a way to stay with myself and not get involved because it's too much chaos. like the narcissist in my life went after my child.

I know it's one thing to go after me, but if you're gonna go after my child, and I was at an event that was like in a theater, and I just dug my fingernails in and thought, don't cry. And then after a half an hour, I thought, don't ruin this event by thinking about what this person said.

Diane: Yes,

Amy: you're here for your daughter and this person can't be, and that's not your problem.

Diane: Yeah. Oh, you know what? That is so wonderful that you said that because, They do, we allow them to ruin activities that we allow them to. I'd be bleeding girl I and bring some gloves. yeah. So I love that approach. I really do. Now your research highlights highly sensitive people as a natural change makers.

So how does this perspective empower caregivers who often feel too sensitive or overwhelmed?

Amy: Here's the thing, and you probably all can relate with this, that because with a narcissistic family, there's always the black sheep, right? The person who didn't fit, and that is the most powerful position in the family.

Although, I'm just gonna disclose here, the black sheep in my family, the first one took her life. this happens because they can't reconcile that it's, they're so very different. But the beauty is. As a child, I mentioned, I could see the interaction was about disconnection, but why? Yeah, and because I could see that and that it was painful carrying it all those years, I didn't just say, okay, I'll just be like them and do this and, do all the things they do.

Instead, I hung out with the pain those years and recognized, I can see how this can be different because I don't, I don't just get into it and be who they are. And I didn't like that. You don't like that you feel like I'm don't fit. I don't get them. Yeah. But you can see how the world can change.

And I, in the book, I relate. The highly sensitive person to the elephants of the world. we are altruists and that's why this world that is so aggressive has pummeled us. But the elephants are a community, but they sense that the water's coming and they trumpet in the sky and they pound the earth and they get the animals to the high ground.

And the thing about it is the highly sensitive would make a human chain and let people climb up them and sacrifice themselves for humanity. We're built that way. That's a difficult part of it, but it doesn't have to be difficult when you get into that power of saying, yeah, this sister is never gonna help.

And I'm ne I'm not gonna go back to that trough anymore because it just ends up in her. I'm gonna put it out to my community and see what happens, Or I'm gonna take that risk and start seeing, we wanna think that way because we are, what I say is what's good for the highly sensitive is good for all people, but what's good for all people is not good for the highly sensitive.

So if, wow. If the highly sensitive set the tone for the future, yeah, it will. It will work for all people. Like you think about education or you think about the jackhammer that's too loud. They'd go to their engineer friend and say, how do we make that quiet? They don't hold back. So you wanna move into that power of there is another opportunity.

How do I look at that instead of getting stuck in this narcissistic loop and churn of, they won't help. They won't help. I know how easy that is as a scapegoat family. Yes. I do too. I absolutely. Absolutely. And it's real. That is, yeah. I say in my book, this is not your fault. Yeah. But it is our problem to solve each of us.

Yes it is. And we can, but we gotta work together and we have to ask in maybe irreverent ways or really get creative with how, what the possibility is of, in this case for caregivers of support.

Diane: I think that's part of, that's what drives me. I'm 72, and I looking good lady. Yeah, thanks. I feel such a need to help caregivers to overcome all the challenges and obstacles they face.

So much of it comes down to our childhood and our family dynamics and,I can see myself now as a, as the elephant trying to trumpet to people to say, to my caregivers, come on, you can get out of this. You need to ask for help. You need to do these things. And, I love that concept.

I, I really do, Amy, it's just amazing. Now you said what serves. They highly sensitive people serves everyone, but how does this principle help us rethink caregiving systems and family dynamics?

Amy: I think a lot of it is, I said it already, it's this aggressive world that we live in. Even Susan Kane, who wrote the book, quiet, she's written quite a few books.

She's a highly sensitive person and she mentioned that getting her MBA at Harvard in the first two weeks, if you didn't aggressively lash out at somebody, in debate or questioning them or so on, they would write you off. Is not going to be successful in this program and in this business world.

And I think con in contrast, I can't find this article again, but in Japan, when you're in about third grade, so nine years old They recognize the kids who are more highly sensitive and intuitive. and they start cultivating that because they know that it's a boon in business. Like when I was 21.

I was, working with a Minnesota Orchestra for the performances, and I would help negotiate the contracts at the end with groups that came in to perform. And then the lawyer did that because he could see I was highly sensitive. I didn't know I was, but he could see, I could understand things from a much greater perspective than he could because I'm in the organization.

So I think that's where. We've been missed. And I even said to a highly extroverted person, I think it's time that the introverts lead. And she was like, no. And I thought, you don't even get it. Yes. Don't get it. yes. you just want what you want. and the reality is, I'll say to the caregiver, from what we were saying prior, excuse me, I'm just getting over a little cold, is you wanna see what your needs are and get those met.

Yes. And if your needs aren't met you, you really can't give care in the whole way. Exactly. and you have to start pushing into that. And that is so uncomfortable because we're used to being valued by giving. yes. and and it's not like self care and, these terms can get really into the model where it's I didn't do the self care day and we start beating ourselves up.

So it's, how do I figure that out? and I found I needed an entirely different life. Like I live at large moving. Europe. Who knew? Yeah. That's a weird life, But my life has become very different and yet when I look back as a child, I can see the markings of that and the thinking of it. Right?

When I was six years old, I was saying this, but in a different way. So we know and we have to figure that out, apply it.

Diane: I'm as, when you see me as a nurse, I'm can be strong and, confident, but when I, and people don't believe this, but at, I would always be quiet and not say things, to at times, that like they wouldn't value my opinion, but, So I, but I too, have had experience where experiences where, here's a perfect example. We were living in Minnesota, Burnsville, Minnesota, and my kids, I sent them to a, a preschool. Now this was a preschool that you had to get into before you had to sign up for two or three years ahead of time because everybody wanted into this little preschool.

But the preschool was, Associated with the Lutheran church. And they weren't making any money. They were losing money. And so they would have these little events, but they weren't making any money. And here I am,I'm literally, 26, 27 years old, and I'm saying, I go off to the executive director who's prim and proper, and here I am in my, my.

My, my clothes, just casual clothes, sweats and a sweatshirt 'cause it was cold. And I said to her, listen, I just want you to know I can teach you how to make money for this organization. She's looking at me and I said, my mom raised, my mom just had a, didn't even have a high school education.

She was ill when she was sick. And I said to them, I said to this, the, administrator of the school at the time, or director of the school. I said, yeah, I can show you how to make money. 'cause my mom, she raised money for. The Catholic church for her church we were building. And I can remember growing up, her going out and asking for donations.

Our basement would be full of stuff that people gave us so that we could do that. So I taught this organization how to make money and they were shocked at what I did. But I had it in my mind and I was confident enough that I could say, I know how to do this exactly as a young girl, but it was.

I just so I really see what you're saying and, because people look at you like you really don't know what you're talking about at times, or they will beat you down. And we draw those kind of people to us in, in, in interactions. And, I get, I don't know how, but, or why, but I was able to overcome that.

I attribute it to my mom, more than anything. But, and she died. When I was 18, so I really lost something very valuable. now here's the topic. caregivers do feel unseen and undervalued. So how can personal knowing, help them reclaim their dignity and voice?

Amy: This is tricky because it takes some inner work to be able to separate that out, and it takes being honest.

The result of my work I said is natural equality, and that really has come upon when we've left the model. In truth, it's natural to us because before that we don't know, and we're constantly asking, and that's why a lot of people in society feel stuck. But the piece there is this for me or is this not for me?

Like I mentioned, the person in my group that we had a sick friend who brought the cookies 'cause that's who she could be. Then everything worked out and that's what we want to move toward is how do we be very honest about. I'm not able to care for dad anymore, and I'm freaking out. That's freaking me out.

I, what am I gonna do? Or how does this look differently? Or what can happen here? Those are the tough choices we need to make to be realistic about, maybe you can't give care at home anymore and you need to look for alternatives or. So on. care is expensive in the United States particularly,and families are more independent.

This thinking is very individualistic, like you said, I have to do it all myself. So there are tons of programs too. I know where I'm from, I am from Minnesota, but Is Darts is a program where you can have somebody that is trained to come out and sit with your person, for a few hours so that you can go out and run errands or so on.

But I think that's the main piece is you have to be. Really honest. And then the lashback is you move right back into the model if you start feeling guilty. And what guilt really says energetically is I don't think we can. What worry says is, I don't think you can. So we don't want that happening.

We wanna believe that this can work out and we don't have to be a positive mindset because this is hard stuff like watching your person become who they're not is incredibly challenging. It also, if it's a parent. You might be dealing and wrestling with your own mortality, that can happen. You're looking at yourself too, which is very natural, I think.

So it's this, how do I look at giving myself some space from this to get some perspective to say, boy, I really can't be that. And then be honest about it. Because in truth, even your parent is still on, on earth and it's like they kinda have some consequences that if a parent can make some phone calls, if they can take care of some of these things, they don't have to be completely cared for.

Diane: Yes. And

Amy: enabled, they can take care of some things, Yep.

Diane: You made a really good point, about, Standing back and deciding what you want. Do you know what you want versus, are you being making this to make somebody else happy or something? In other words, yeah, easy. And I will tell you that I see so many adult children of narcissists that are incapable.

Of making a, they don't even know what they want. They have been beaten down so much. And that was some, that's something that's so hard to overcome and, 'cause I've seen it and I have some stories that are horrendous about what dealing with, narcissist I, one client I had and I talk about it.

Star and her mom. Those aren't real names, but, star and her mom, her mom was a narcissist and her mom was such a malignant narcissist when she got married. She made her husband quit his job. And live with her and her parents so that she could be, have all of his attention all of the time.

Amy: Wow.

Diane: And she had this child star and, star when her dad died, was consumed by her mom. literally, she. Her mom would go to great lengths to get her go to her job and get her fired so that she would stay home. and it took literally, and this is a story I tell on other, on some of my narcissistic pot, episodes that, star.

Her mom actually was so awful that, star had to slowly break away and it took actually three years for her to decide, okay, I'm gonna put her in assisted living. So she puts her in assisted living, and of course it was a horrendous experience. Star got treatment at the hospital. The day she went into the hospital, she was diagnosed with cancer and died within a few weeks.

Amy: Yeah. This is what we don't, we don't wanna do this. We wanna live and one of the retreats that I'm hosting, I'll do a three day retreat and I'll be back in the US in May for sure. So I'll hopefully host one then, but. Is I realized, when we go to a retreat or we go to even a caregiver seminar where we just feel like, God, they get it.

I feel connected again. I'm with myself, and then we get home back into the situation. We're just like, I don't even want, wanna walk into the house? Yes. That the workshop is about the distance from when we, why we feel, what we feel when we're at that event and what happens, and then we work on recognizing the distance in between.

We're figuring it out so that we can start to make sharper decisions and say, preemptively, in three years time, this isn't gonna work for me to be caregiving for my parents. So why am I not doing that now so that I care for myself? These are hard things, but also your parent, this sounds hard, but they didn't parent you probably fully and they aren't, weren't parenting themselves.

Yes. And this is parenting them at this point and saying, there are boundaries to what I can be and. I'm gonna protect myself because that's what I'm here to do. and that sounds selfish. It's not, no, we have to take care of ourselves.

Diane: it's, survival. It's a survival technique, to be selfish to a point.

And one of the things that, that's a. Big challenge for 99.9% of my caregivers that I interact with, they don't know how to set boundaries or limits. And so I real, I try to reinforce that every chance I get, so I really appreciate that. what are some practical steps caregivers can take to restore fairness, balance and respect in the home?

Amy: It's a tricky one because it is a little bit of a unique situation, and with a narcissist, it really is holding the boundaries. I would say too, because they're in a little bit of a different mind space where there might be pain involved. That, again, if you change a pattern from what was happening in childhood, we think in our mind, keep it the same because that's what they know.

But like I told the story earlier, I think that a powerful way too. Shift it up. The other thing that I've done with my own parents, but I feel like it's, the truth of it is it's not worth having a relationship with somebody where you need to do this. Before I would go and see her, I'd say, I wanna experience connection.

I wanna have some fun and I wanna leave feeling peaceful. And then what would happen is during the time that I was with her I just have to make sure that I stayed in the position of not like all of a sudden, one of the times she grew very anxious and normally she'd project that on me. You're so anxious.

And so I just stayed silent and I even dug my fingernails into my hand. Yeah. But I said to myself, just hang here. let her have that pause and that discomfort don't fill in and try and make her comfortable. Yes. And then she said it. She's this has really been troubling me and blah. She said the thing that is true.

It's because I was staying in that position of I'm gonna have fun here and I'm gonna have connection. Yes. And I'm not gonna, I didn't say I'm not gonna fall into the antics, but, and I did have fun connected and I left feeling peaceful. But in truth, relationships that take that effort are not real relationships.

Yeah. So that you need to recognize that too, that's not a healthy relationship. If that's what we need to do, we have to. Hold ourselves in a certain, like I'm with myself, I'm with myself. And then let them.

Diane: I think it's really hard for,adult children of narcissists to do is see who they really are.

'cause they don't know. that's right. Yeah. They are just an extension of the narcissist.

Amy: And,

Diane: that's a really hard challenge to break. now you've observed that 98% of humanity shares the same basic desires. How does acknowledging this reshape truth? Start over. Stop. Start over. How does acknowledging this truth reshape how we treat caregivers and care recipients?

Amy: I'm gonna take it a little bit of a different angle, but in truth, it was in, the year 2001, I realized I read an article, I was having a baby in a few weeks. Nine 11 had happened. There was a lot going on. Yes. And I realized this man had been shot in a different country than mine, but he was just doing something my family would be doing.

And it was, he was with his children and I just really hit me. I was also very pregnant. But I realize though the world mostly wants a safe place to live. Good access to healthcare, good access to clean food, clean water, safe housing, a safe community to live in. And that's not asking too much. the greater picture there is it's 2% that kind of screws it all up.

And so our positioning is we also can push into that system. And I realize you're a caregiver, you're exhausted, but it is worth looking at if you're in the room with several care or doctors and so on. Maybe there's an intern in there and the doctors are unsure what to do. You could say to the intern, I wanna hear what you have to say.

Because right there you're breaking the hierarchy away and you're thinking this person may have learned something that these other two don't know. We wanna open that opportunity that all the voices in the room can be heard because you never know. And, we also wanna make sure that we are recognizing, our part in that too, of, yes, not getting stuck on it can only be this way.

This person has this thing. I think in time where we're headed, and this is more in my second book that I haven't, I've written it, but I, I have not gotten to publish yet, but I guess this first one's just coming out is I think that health and healing are gonna really change in the future because we're headed into a different trajectory and taking out the hierarchy.

Means that we're all equal, which is this natural equality, but we're operating quite differently too. And that's in the book. I won't talk more about that. So it is a multifaceted answer. yes. But I hope that gave you an idea of what I see as this 98% we can achieve that. We can be the ones like, I remember when my daughter was born, the first child, there was something at the.

Grocery store on the carts that didn't work for the baby seat. And I said to my doctor, what do I do? We're like, what happens about that? Can you do anything about that? And they were like, no, you can lobby in pol, you know your politicians and say, we need this change. We need this to be a standard.

And I thought, there it is. How do we do that? How do we become a collective voice? For healthcare in the United States or in the world. there are a lot of places in the world that healthcare is not very good and it's very expensive.

Diane: yes. you brought up a good point and I'm gonna share something with you.

I am one of these people, like you said, the elephant that wants to trumpet and I'm seeing what's happening in care family caregivers and our healthcare system is so broken. And more and more pressure is put on the family caregiver to provide care once. Provided by, healthcare professionals. So I did two things.

Number one, I wrote a patient care advocate course, and when you were saying, don't hesitate to ask caregivers, feel invisible to the healthcare system. So I tease and tell them you are. I tease and tell them, but I mean it seriously. I mean it, but people think I'm joking, put on a lab coat, I actually tell them, put care team part.

I'm a care team partner. And put your name on it and attend those meetings. With a notebook and notepad with questions, and I actually encourage families when to go to those, to go to doctor's appointments or even in the hospital, go to all the care plan meetings or the daily rounds when they're family and have questions available.

And I teach you how to do those questions because you need to know and you need to be able, if you have questions and concerns, there's an appropriate way to, to. Respond and ask for things. And then there is the I. You didn't do this right. You don't wanna attack. and sometimes, and I will tell you, I've dealt with the military medical delivery system and there were times when I, my son used to.

At first, he was really upset because of the way I approached them. Always questioning, always asking, what could be done or changed? because that's me. I know how to advocate for my caregivers and my family. And and it got to the point where he would say to me, Hey, mom. I need your dime monster, Diane.

They call me die. Bring your dime monster out because I need that right now. And there are times when you just have to be aggressive when people aren't listening, But I do it in a different way also. I like to. I went up the chain of command. I, this is gonna offend some people, but I was always told, why go to the ass when you can go to the head? So I know people will be offended by that and I apologize, but it's true. So I would go up the hierarchy, like I wasn't in the military family, but I went all the way to my. For my son, I went to Washington DC to the surgeon General's office to advocate for him to get care in the proper setting.

And the other thing I did, which was very disappointing, I started a petition for family caregivers. I really thought that they would see it and read it and be compelled to sign it because I wanted advocacy for them. I wanted to. Get acknowledgement, they wanna give tax credits to caregivers?

no. Caregivers provide over $650 million of unpaid care a year and it's going to go astonishingly high. It's gonna be in the billions. And they do it at great expense. Many of them be become at or below poverty level when they are done with their caregiving journey. So I put this. This wonderful,petition together to get them to sign it so that we could have a movement to say, Hey, we wanna be acknowledged.

We want respite care, affordable respite care. We want help, we need healthcare. And it was an astonishing failure. I guess people didn't think that it would make a difference or what, but I, it didn't get momentum and it broke my heart. it's still up there,in change.org, but I felt like, we, you have an opportunity here to make a difference for yourself and for the future caregivers.

Lord knows we need it. And they just, nobody was interested in it and I thought, oh, my.

Amy: Diane though in the world it's coming. Claudia Scheinbaum, the president of Mexico, so she's been in just since 2024. Yes. She just probably in the spring of 2025, passed a bill where women that are 64 years and older can receive a pension for raising their children.

Diane: Oh, wow.

Amy: So it's happening out there and I think that's what we have to look to. I also wanna say, and this isn't, I don't know that this is legal in every state. Yes. But you can record your. Call or your not your call. session with the doctor. Yeah. And I think it's okay to say I'm overwhelmed and it's hard for me to take all of this in by myself, so I'm gonna record this so that I can look back because it also holds accountability to say, but you did say that.

Yes. And then, we can hold them to it and challenge them. The other thing I want to add in there is I made it sound like all caregiver or all, not caregivers, but all doctors are bad or so. Absolutely not. I think that the system is extremely broken and it doesn't serve them either. So there are a lot of great caregivers that can't manage the system.

But I do think there is a lot of ego and this hierarchy and model within, medicine.

Diane: Yes. And that's

Amy: not working for us.

Diane: I actually encourage in my Patient Care advocate course and book, like to. ask if you can record. And take it. I tell them all the time. You have to, it's important to have this record of, this of.

Of the meeting so that you can go over and listen to things. But if you also have a care team, partner support group that you've built, you share that information, whatever you feel comfortable sharing so that other people hear the same thing. And I think that's really important. So that's a very good point that you've made there.

and as far as doctors. Medicare, especially as we get older. And now with Obamacare, they only are allotted 15 minutes of time. And in that 15 minutes of time that they get reimbursed for, they have to hear you out, assess you, diagnose you, and then provide a treatment plan and put it into their, system, their electronic system.

And 15 minutes does not allot any time, at all for proper. Treatment or diagnosis. And the other thing we have that is, is a problem is our government has, policymakers have made it such that the doctor is no longer in charge of our care. It is the government policymakers. And they, the doctors are always second guessed, no, you can't order that drug.

You need to order this one. Or, no, you can't do this test because it's too expensive. You need to do this. And they have had to, in fact. People don't understand this or know this, but doctors nowadays make less than they did 20 years ago. And that's the other thing. They have created this whole system where they delay deny, and in the military they say, wait to die, but they have to go through these processes.

Doctors now need triple the amount of staff they did in the olden days where they just had a receptionist who was probably also a lab tech that was also be able, the record keeper and stuff. and now they require somebody for so many different roles. To go through the government hoops that they have to jump through that it, it puts doctors in a situation where they don't have time to listen.

They don't really have time. They try, but they're limited. And, it's very frustrating. So that's one of the reasons why our system is so broken.

It's and it brings out, I think you

Amy: might be at the precipice of that changing though.

Diane: Absolutely. Yeah. and I'm advocating for that so hard, but family caregivers often bring out tensions with sibling and dy and relatives.

I know the family dynamics go back to, they revert back to when you were a child.

So how can your work help collapse those power struggles?

Amy: that's a big one to ask because that's a long time that they've been there. Diane, just wave your magic wand and it's gone. Yeah. yeah, I think you know who you're dealing with.

the sibling that's arrogant, the sibling that's never gonna, so you're working with this and again, I'm gonna go back to, here are all the things and let me know when you're ready to. In, to claim one of those as your own or so on. And the people that don't get back to you don't chase them.

And then when they find out that your neighbor is helping and this other person from this church that you found is helping, they're gonna have to accept that because they weren't themselves willing to help. And you can just say to them, that's what it is. you don't love that. Yeah. you just.

There's no drama, there's no, don't go into it with them because it doesn't work. It doesn't work. It's just gonna, it's what they want. They want to feed that.

Diane: Yes. Stop. And they want you to have that reaction and cause and don't give, I always tell people, don't give them the power over you to control what you're doing.

and that's hard for so many caregivers to get. Oh, it is hard. Yeah. it's really hard. Yeah. And

Amy: it's hard when you have an ailing. A parent or you're caring for somebody because you're also, it's one leg of your stool is not working. Yeah. And that makes it harder, like then if you have financial situations, there's just a lot to it.

Yeah,

Diane: exactly. Yeah. Now your book is out. It's just been released a few days ago and I'm really excited about it. what can caregivers expect to learn about it?

Amy: Yeah. first of all, it's hot off the presses, like you said, but it's, there's an audio book version too, and I'd recommend that for you, caregiver.

Awesome. Yes. Yes. Really. Thank you. This is what you're, this first book? No, KNOW. What you're gonna get from it is you will feel understood is it's a gentle handhold of, not historically, but this is what's been going on. And the advanced readers, the ones that were reading it before the book came out, said to me, across the board, without knowing each other, you said exactly what I felt all these years.

And I could not at all articulate for myself. So it's giving you perspective on this is the problem. So that's why if you meditate till the cows come home, you're probably not gonna get at it because there's this other thing going on and we, we need to, and my next book will be about taking this pin out and breaking that system free completely.

But this one sets up all the, this is why and the basic know-how. but you're really gonna feel understood, particularly if you're a highly sensitive person. It's mostly for women, but some men would fit into that category too, that are interested in healing. Were scapegoats, so on. Yeah.

Diane: Yes. actually just our conversation today made me realize so much about myself, even more at 72, so I really appreciate that and thank you for saying that.

Amazing. no, you just put things in a perspective and I tell my caregivers all the time, change your perspective, you change your life. And I really work to do that, to look at different avenues. But when, I, I've. When I see how my life has gone and what I've done, I've broken some of the patterns.

But obviously not a lot. All of them. And I really like, some of your tips and, I can't, I'm gonna go get the book when I get off here today. So finally, if you could share one message of hope with caregivers listening right now, what would it be?

Amy: Yeah. it's easy to say you're not alone, and I know how lonely it feels.

But the other part to that, that brings it into a state of logic is find out where you do belong. Find out where your heart is at home, because when you find that you're gonna find natural help that is like you and natural support that is. Built the way you're built, if it's emotional or whatever, mental or that's what we need is we need the people and the connection that are true for us and that changes everything.

So that's what Oh, it

Diane: does? Yeah. Amy, you have such a powerful message and it's so needed and timely in, in our world because we do have the silver tsunami and we don't have enough youth, to care for our family members, and we also don't have. Any support from the medical delivery system, and we're putting more and more pressure on the family caregivers and they need to learn to stand up for themselves.

And that's why I really love the message your book brings, questions, everything. So thank you for your time today.

Amy: Thanks for having me. And I wish all of the caregivers that are listening to this, that they see their way through that they champion that. Yes. I think it's incredibly important because you're setting the tone and the tide for the future, and that's really important.

It changes.

Diane: To my family caregivers out there, you are the most important part of the caregiving equation. Without you, it all falls apart. So please learn to be gentle with yourself, practice self-care every day and get Amy's book because you are worth it.